Limited Run Under Fire For "Horrible" Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Vinyl Release

What a joke of a company. Everyone should just avoid them.

Both Atari and Limited Run Games think their customers are idiots. And the customers keep proving them right.

They're certainly no Data Discs!

Mistakes happen, and that's fine, as long as their customer service responds appropriately. I like Limited Run, but there's no denying that they need to work on their quality control. I don't buy any stuff for old systems, vinyls, etc from them though, only their products for modern platforms which generally all have been fantastic quality so far, so maybe I would be more jaded with regards to LRG if I dabbled more in their hit-or-miss retro stuff.

I hope LRG steps up and makes good on this, by sending out quality CD-R burns out to everyone affected.

This is all really unfortunate. I hope LRG responds clearly and gets its act together, but they've shown little intention to do so.

That said... I do not understand the idea of purchasing chip tunes on vinyl. Say what you will about vinyl when it comes to analog music, but there isn't even a valid argument to be made that this is the intended way to listen to music specifically written to be generated by a chip and pumped directly to speakers.

Wow, LRG are on a roll lately aren't they?

@BHPM how many and how frequently can they happen before they can no longer be classed as mistakes but rather deliberate can't give a damn about customers? For me this point passed years ago.

@Razieluigi

i partially agree with you. part of the point of vinyl is to have an analog medium with which to enjoy analog music. 👍

OTOH, vinyl is also the most archival format, in the sense that it will last forever if cared for properly (particularly if it is not played regularly, which may not be true of cds and tapes which can simply degrade on the shelf) and requires no digital tech (or even electricity technically) to play, and in the sense that it's a large scale representation of the associated cover artwork, often with extra content in the form of bonus art, words in the form of lyrics, credits, interviews, essays, etc, and other ephemera.

I love my Mother 2 vinyl for these reasons, though I listen to the OST on youtube or while playing Earthbound generally ✌️

that said, I'm not clamoring for a whole stack of game osts on vinyl (though i do wish id grabbed that Suikoden ost from ship to shore when i had the chance 😆😆 and I'd love to have an LP copy of darius gaiden's ost.)

@gingerbeardman
Shout Factory is still around and they put out tons of shoddy releases!
They do some good too...

if you want good VGM vinyl, Jeffrey Roberts was an engineer on the Gimmick! and Phantasy Star OST releases, and he's part of the band Marshall Art as well who have released a few records on vinyl

@-wc- Yeah, also agreed. I'm not a big vinyl guy, but I get why people like it for analog music. I do also appreciate the extras like cover art and wahtnot.

But for archival purposes, it seems that the ideal way to archive chip music is digitally. It has the potential to be 100% accurate and can be infinitely reproduced with zero loss.

Honestly, with chiptunes the biggest obstacle to accuracy is the hardware used to play it, because the data itself stands a very good chance of being flawless.

@gingerbeardman Yeah, you're not wrong there. They definitely have a bad track record of shipping low quality products and just going "whoops sorry lol" when they're called out on it, as if they each time they just cross their fingers and hope that nobody notices their bad quality control.

Honestly, it's really hard to judge if they are being malicious or if they are just completely incompetent, but they're certainly one of the two. I am admittedly far too generous so I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, but what can undoubtedly be gathered from them is that they are far too inconsistent with their retro products and with stuff like vinyl to be worth buying from them, which is part of why I never buy their GBA, Genesis, etc stuff, as tempting as it sometimes can be.

I still haven't had any issues with their "modern" products though so I'm cool with those.

@Razieluigi

of course, you're not wrong on the facts. though i would offer the slightly off topic caveat that to an individual, what is most "accurate" may not always sound "best."

my experience with digital files is that as far as "my collection" goes, historically it's been pretty dicey from an archival sense. without some digital savvy and a bit of infrastructure in the form of a backup system, ive found trying to hang on to precious audio files over time to be a bit like holding rainwater in a pasta strainer (in extreme slow motion lol.) of course, i can always redownload those files, theoretically, but the amount of time and work that goes into actually retaining a digital archive in my mind is even more than keeping physical media on a shelf.

in other words, I have a vast, ethereal and inaccessible digital collection of unknown quantity floating around out there on various dead hard drives and old computers, and almost nothing to show for it after almost 30 years of digital accumulation.

OTOH i have almost every vinyl record ive ever bought going back about as far, including the first one I ever remember buying (The White Stripes - De Stijl in 9th grade, c. 2000 🤘) without even really trying. likewise, my grandparent's 1970s technics DD turntable which i inherited around that time is still going strong, requiring zero maintenance, and in active use spanning MANY generations of digital audio reproducing tech, and distribution models.

one could argue that digital proliferation is its own archival system, but ive now lived long enough to see the folly in that line of thinking. 👍

@Razieluigi "Say what you will about vinyl when it comes to analog music, but there isn't even a valid argument to be made that this is the intended way to listen to music specifically written to be generated by a chip and pumped directly to speakers."

I think this is both correct and yet also incorrect.

A properly mastered vinyl will sound just as good as the source, just like any other music format. Recording direct from hardware with all the filters and such that are part of that hardware should give the exact same sound as the one being sent to the speakers. In the right hands.

If they had used the original hardware as the source, and mastered it properly it should have sounded fantastic. Heck, I've heard a couple of releases derived from VGM rips and they still sounded fantastic because they were treated with the due care and attention.

@BionicDodo Of course Data Discs are two professional audio engineers who use their own studio so they set a high bar.

Aren’t these the partner chosen to release Earthion on the Mega Drive (the new Yuzo Koshiro Shmup)?

I’ve been really looking forward to this, having not ordered from LRG before, I’m concerned. Hopefully the UK have a different outlet/supplier.

What's this bit about the Cowabunga Collection (CC)? If I'm understanding it correctly, LRG recorded (or outright copied) the OGG files from a jukebox feature in the CC's bonus content?

They could've just downloaded the NSFE (a file containing the exact music data extracted from the ROM, with track names and timings added), played it from start to finish, and logged the output. It would've produced better results, and taken less work at the same time!

(Before anyone mentions it: yes, they could use a real NES, but that's a lot harder, and I imagine that the CC tracks were recorded from emulation, anyway.)

@-wc- Ha. I hear that.

My digital library is meticulously organized and backed up. Movies, music, games, photographs... Hell, my current PC is still home to high school homework assignments done on a Windows 3.1 PC back in the mid-90s! I back everything up locally to labeled hard drives at least once a month or after a major change, as well as to the cloud using iDrive. And when I migrate to a new machine, literally everything comes along for the ride.

Which, to your point, is a lot of work compared to keeping some LPs on a shelf

@-wc- technically vinyl degrades with each play

@Robcmyk

it's true. I feel like I touched on that when I said

"vinyl is also the most archival format, in the sense that it will last forever if cared for properly (particularly if it is not played regularly, which may not be true of cds and tapes which can simply degrade on the shelf)"

of course it's all down to how many times a month week or day you listen to that particular record.

in terms of listening to music before the mp3s and the internet, in my experience vinyl lasts for many more plays than cassettes, and doesnt seem to get as many wtfs from regular handling as cds. but thats neither here nor now.

otoh the shelf life of records not being played is tremendous compared to almost any other physical format i can think of (again, if reasonably cared for.) 👍

(edit - I'm not a big "vinyl guy" per se but I do like comparing virtues of different things 👍👍)

To be fair, it was Ship to Shore that handled the vinyl production, not LRG directly (the TMNT vinyls were the last records they produced before going out of business). I have a few of their records - including Castlevania: The Adventure ReBirth, Contra: Hard Corps, Contra ReBirth and THIS VERY TMNT vinyl - and yeah, they created and sold unique niche products with beautiful artwork that no one else was gonna press, but they definitely weren't going for the audiophile crowd.

I think the CD-R situation was inexcusable, but this? This is overblown expectations for something that was never promised.

@Razieluigi It's an excuse to collect something they think will be worth money someday. Or they're $45 wall hangings?

The best way to listen to NES at least is pull the audio from the CPU and wire new RCA jacks. This bypasses sound going through the muddy-ass RF (even if you're using the stock RCA jacks, it still goes to RF first). I did it like 5 years ago and the bass and clarity are amazing. I'm NOT an audiophile at all. But if you're an NES player it's a big difference.

I've heard of the Toslink mod for SNES and Saturn but have been told the difference is nearly imperceptible. I wish more people seemed to know about the NES mod tho

One thing I'd never buy on any format is a Genesis OST, because every revision MD/Gen is a little different, and whatever they cut might not sound like how you want it at all.

When the Sonic 1 and 2 OSTs finally came out they sounded tinny and way off, and I went right back to my mp3s I recorded with a tape player from Sonic Jam lolol

@-wc- The analog vinyl press may last a long time, but it isn't a good method to archive digital music. Analog is analog, it is not an exact replica and its playback methods are not exact sound reproduction. Digital music exists perfectly in 1s and 0s. As long as you transfer it to a new digital format in raw data, the 1s and 0s will always be exactly the same. Its can continuously be archived forever across many different digital mediums this way. Once it hits an analog medium, it is forever changed and no longer preserved.

Analog has its purpose, but its purpose isn't preservation, its purpose is sound taste and preference. And the really cool giant art doesn't hurt either.

I don’t really understand the appeal of video game soundtracks on vinyl. Is it just because there are no longer any other physical media to play game soundtracks off of since cds are dead?

@DestructoDisk

all sound is analog. even if its a digital file, played back on a digital amp, the information must be converted to analog at some point for the speakers to reproduce the sound, and for your eardrums to hear it. 👍 you can't hear digital audio files without converting them to analogue. whether your current software and setup for listening to digital files sounds better than the mixing desk where the master was made for vinyl, that remains a question (but it likely doesn't, in many cases.)

this being said, your argument that you can make perfect copies of the files is valid, if that's what you want to do.

If you want a copy that sounds good to listen to, and will last as long as you do and pass down to your kids and grandkids vinyl is a good option. ✌️

EDIT - like i said before, im not a big vinyl guy. I have lots of records but I have only one game OST on vinyl. I most often use zxtune or YouTube to listen to game osts (or legacy music hour,) and im generally happy with that 🙂👍

Blaming “outside factors” doesn’t cut it, for me. If they can’t release something if a sufficient quality, they shouldn’t release it at all

@-wc- I would personally say it is better to pass them an uncompressed digital file than a vinyl. If they really want to hear it on vinyl they can have it pressed for a pretty decent price. But if you pass them an analog copy, copying that data gets corrupted more and more with every new copy.

Its like having a TIFF or a JPEG. Pass a JPEG around enough and eventually it becomes an unrecognizable blur of graphics. Pass a TIFF around and it will be forever perfect. Heck you can even view a TIFF that has been shared millions of times on an analog CRT monitor, and it will look like the intended picture. The JPEG shared a million times will look nothing like the original picture whether you view it on an analog or digital device. Same goes with audio, physical sound waves may be analog, but if they are cast from a lossless digital source, they will always be recognizable as the same song. If the sound waves are cast from analog sources, over time the sound will change. Maybe not enough for most to notice in our lifetime, but eventually the song will be completely different.

That is why vinyl is not suitable for archival purposes. 1s and 0s will forever be 1s and 0s. Even if the media doesn’t last long, you can keep making new copies until the end of time and your archive copy will sounds exactly the same during the universes heat death, as it did in 1984.

Vinyl is cool, vinyl is fun, vinyl can provide a unique experience and sound. I own the Phantasy Star vinyl for the beautiful art and fold out insert. But it has no business being seen as an archive copy.

LRG: "Meh, they'll still buy our stuff anyway."

@-wc- Though it is worth noting that vinyl is limited by literal depth, you can't get low lows with it.

@Poodlestargenerica

i know this is theoretically probably true, but put my copy of Sleep's Dopesmoker on my turntable, with my (very accurate, bass-reproducing but not boosting) 1985 klipsch fortes, and tell me if you don't hear any low lows 😂 it's mind bending.

for the record, im again not a huge vinyl guy. i do most of my music listening on youtube and on CD. I was originally attempting an argument for why SOMEONE might want chiptunes on vinyl ✌️

@DestructoDisk

you're not wrong. I think there's some room here for more than one approach. ✌️ I won't reiterate what I've stated here already but I will always feel that for a personal archive, as in a curated listening library that is virtually permanent, vinyl is just fine, and the limitations of the format are largely academic. 👍 thanks for the discussion! And for making your argument clearly and in a friendly way 🙂