@WileyDragonfly NES's conk out all the time, including some I've had. Again, it is hard to prove exactly what did it, it accellerates the wear more than anything. It isn't like pop in the cart and it dies - its just not great for it.
@WileyDragonfly Companies seldom agree with and spend money on replacements quickly over myths. It's kinda like trying to prove a rough road is wearing out your tires faster. I just drove 20 miles on that road and don't see any damage! When your tires go a few thousand miles earlier than usual, "it could have been anything, I don't know what your tires went through in the past couple years!". But it was the road...
Well it looks like they are surprisingly in agreement and replacing carts. I'm shocked. It will take more than this to win me back, and it could just be too many bad PRs recently and RugRats being a big one (and PioPow probably smaller and easier to handle). Right move in any case... https://imgur.com/a/2GtRpMn
@avcrypt Thanks for the clarification, I'm no electrical engineer but have heard about things to watch out for in this area and go mostly by datasheets etc. and know a voltage regulator or level shifter when I see one hah.
@avcrypt do these chips also output 5v back to the device? That's one issue here. While there is a 3.3v voltage regulator to drop the voltage for the chip (and based on the article, that's not enough), what would keep such chips from undervolting the signal back to the NES, which isn't good for it either?
Also, I've read the datasheet I could find on the chips used in Piopow and unless I missed it, it seems like their tolarance only goes to 3.6v.
The chips getting too many volts is bad for the cart, but sending 3.3v to the NES is bad for it, and I'm more concerned about my console than one game. If the game crapping out was the biggest worry, it wouldn't be as big of a deal (but still an issue).
@cawley1 I fail to see why you commented on an article that would only be of interest to people that do care. I don't need Nintendo or Sega to make money off a release in order for me to enjoy a physical copy. I didn't with Tengen games on my NES back then, and these are (or should be) no different.
They ARE licensed by the game owners, just not the console maker.
I don't want them to cost more cause they had to pay for licensing, and the other option would be no physical games at all for them, which would stink.
@mrbogus I can only speak for Piopow, but there's 4 items on the board - two 39VF010 70-4CWH flash memory chips (3v chips), a 3.3v voltage regulator, and a CIC lockout chip. That's it.
@mrbogus it isn't a risk anywhere - many retro cart makers and devs are very aware of this and use PCBs and parts that are compliant. It's become a lot less common with homebrew. It can happen if buying random games and not paying attention to who they are from yeah. But I also expect better from a company with QA resources like LRG that should know better and ensure better, compared to someone doing their first game on Kickstarter (though I've had better luck with those than LRG by percentage for sure). It isn't unavoidable by any means. It is also something retro players have become more aware of over the years.
However I don't expect it from a company like LRG that is definitely more about the profits, even if it means refunding a few people who both opened it and decided to complain, than to spend the money to do it right. Going chreap pays off for them it seems.
It is a good idea to know what's in any new NES cart you get though, as it is true they aren't alone, but they have the least excuses.
@GeekAffinity - it's not a mystery and something that's been discussed in the past, there was outcrry many years ago regarding Everdrives being similar, which have all been corrected and those have been fine for a long time. Overall the reason is pretty simple - cost - and the games still 'work' just like your car works on a rough road, but wears the tires more quickly. But also, good luck proving to anyone that it was definitely that road that did it and not just that your tires weren't as good as you thought etc. It is a case where it is difficult to measure or observe any damage realtime, but over time, it isn't great. They drove it down that road once, the tires still look fine, road must be fine. Use the cheaper pavement! I don't think they are unaware of any of this, they just know most people will never complain and chalk up a dead NES to being old, if they even open the game. They sell enough that never open it to where that would be worth doing it for them. Just look at Doom Classics for Switch, they even offered a free replacement, but it required opening it to send in the cart. The replacement carts are very rare and worth $300+ now cause people didn't want to unseal theirs, which are not worth that much now, as being sealed shows it wasn't swapped out.
Yeah in the past months I've noticed this, gotten another NES cart with a loose chip in the shell (a bunch of solder points all let go together I guess), and they kept swapping my 'defective' Maniac Mansion carts until I realized they'd used a universal CIC and you just have to tap reset 3 times to set it to NTSC mode once then it is good forever, but they didn't seem to know. I also was one that got the 3DO CD-Rs which at least they replaced, but only after saying it was because it was the only way they could find, but other have had no issues releasing homebrew on pressed disc for 3DO, nor did LRG once people were mad. I've given them up long ago. They should stick with modern releases where the console makers are still primarily making the carts/discs from what I understand. It should at least be true with Switch... but then you run into issues even then like LRG had with the Doom Classics set on Switch. All around bad QA.
@KingMike exactly - they are not doing anything that Retro-Bit, Limited Run Games, Iam8bit, and many others have done. Heck, what Activision and Tengen did for Atari and NES during their lifetimes, backed up by court rulings. And let's not forget AtariAge who is only recently owned by Atari, and sells games for consoles other than Atari-owned ones. @Sebidix is just wrong about those takes. The Activision ruling told Atari other people could make stuff for their console, and the Sega ruling showed that including copyrighted stuff in your lockout didn't count. In other words, anyone can make things for any system they can get them to run on. Now I'm sure that's different with newer consoles and all the things you agree to just to turn it on the first time, and questions involving right-to-repair on newer stuff. But Gameboy stuff? That's one of the biggest communities of cart makers. Hell Nintendo isn't afraid to take down a Kickstarter, happens all the time, but not to people making their own gameboy games that don't copy nintendo characters, and you know they would if they could. Not sure where that decades-old misinformation creeped in from haha.
Comments 11
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@WileyDragonfly NES's conk out all the time, including some I've had. Again, it is hard to prove exactly what did it, it accellerates the wear more than anything. It isn't like pop in the cart and it dies - its just not great for it.
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@WileyDragonfly Companies seldom agree with and spend money on replacements quickly over myths.
It's kinda like trying to prove a rough road is wearing out your tires faster. I just drove 20 miles on that road and don't see any damage! When your tires go a few thousand miles earlier than usual, "it could have been anything, I don't know what your tires went through in the past couple years!". But it was the road...
https://imgur.com/a/2GtRpMn
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
Well it looks like they are surprisingly in agreement and replacing carts. I'm shocked. It will take more than this to win me back, and it could just be too many bad PRs recently and RugRats being a big one (and PioPow probably smaller and easier to handle).
Right move in any case...
https://imgur.com/a/2GtRpMn
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@avcrypt Thanks for the clarification, I'm no electrical engineer but have heard about things to watch out for in this area and go mostly by datasheets etc. and know a voltage regulator or level shifter when I see one hah.
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@avcrypt do these chips also output 5v back to the device? That's one issue here. While there is a 3.3v voltage regulator to drop the voltage for the chip (and based on the article, that's not enough), what would keep such chips from undervolting the signal back to the NES, which isn't good for it either?
Also, I've read the datasheet I could find on the chips used in Piopow and unless I missed it, it seems like their tolarance only goes to 3.6v.
The chips getting too many volts is bad for the cart, but sending 3.3v to the NES is bad for it, and I'm more concerned about my console than one game. If the game crapping out was the biggest worry, it wouldn't be as big of a deal (but still an issue).
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@cawley1 I fail to see why you commented on an article that would only be of interest to people that do care. I don't need Nintendo or Sega to make money off a release in order for me to enjoy a physical copy. I didn't with Tengen games on my NES back then, and these are (or should be) no different.
They ARE licensed by the game owners, just not the console maker.
I don't want them to cost more cause they had to pay for licensing, and the other option would be no physical games at all for them, which would stink.
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@mrbogus I can only speak for Piopow, but there's 4 items on the board - two 39VF010 70-4CWH flash memory chips (3v chips), a 3.3v voltage regulator, and a CIC lockout chip. That's it.
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@mrbogus it isn't a risk anywhere - many retro cart makers and devs are very aware of this and use PCBs and parts that are compliant. It's become a lot less common with homebrew. It can happen if buying random games and not paying attention to who they are from yeah. But I also expect better from a company with QA resources like LRG that should know better and ensure better, compared to someone doing their first game on Kickstarter (though I've had better luck with those than LRG by percentage for sure). It isn't unavoidable by any means. It is also something retro players have become more aware of over the years.
However I don't expect it from a company like LRG that is definitely more about the profits, even if it means refunding a few people who both opened it and decided to complain, than to spend the money to do it right. Going chreap pays off for them it seems.
It is a good idea to know what's in any new NES cart you get though, as it is true they aren't alone, but they have the least excuses.
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
@GeekAffinity - it's not a mystery and something that's been discussed in the past, there was outcrry many years ago regarding Everdrives being similar, which have all been corrected and those have been fine for a long time.
Overall the reason is pretty simple - cost - and the games still 'work' just like your car works on a rough road, but wears the tires more quickly. But also, good luck proving to anyone that it was definitely that road that did it and not just that your tires weren't as good as you thought etc. It is a case where it is difficult to measure or observe any damage realtime, but over time, it isn't great. They drove it down that road once, the tires still look fine, road must be fine. Use the cheaper pavement!
I don't think they are unaware of any of this, they just know most people will never complain and chalk up a dead NES to being old, if they even open the game. They sell enough that never open it to where that would be worth doing it for them.
Just look at Doom Classics for Switch, they even offered a free replacement, but it required opening it to send in the cart. The replacement carts are very rare and worth $300+ now cause people didn't want to unseal theirs, which are not worth that much now, as being sealed shows it wasn't swapped out.
Re: "This Cartridge Is A Tiny Time Bomb" - Limited Run Accused Of Selling Carts Which Can Damage Your NES
Yeah in the past months I've noticed this, gotten another NES cart with a loose chip in the shell (a bunch of solder points all let go together I guess), and they kept swapping my 'defective' Maniac Mansion carts until I realized they'd used a universal CIC and you just have to tap reset 3 times to set it to NTSC mode once then it is good forever, but they didn't seem to know. I also was one that got the 3DO CD-Rs which at least they replaced, but only after saying it was because it was the only way they could find, but other have had no issues releasing homebrew on pressed disc for 3DO, nor did LRG once people were mad.
I've given them up long ago. They should stick with modern releases where the console makers are still primarily making the carts/discs from what I understand. It should at least be true with Switch... but then you run into issues even then like LRG had with the Doom Classics set on Switch. All around bad QA.
Re: Etsy Accuses Game Boy Publisher Of Piracy For Selling Its Own Games
@KingMike exactly - they are not doing anything that Retro-Bit, Limited Run Games, Iam8bit, and many others have done. Heck, what Activision and Tengen did for Atari and NES during their lifetimes, backed up by court rulings. And let's not forget AtariAge who is only recently owned by Atari, and sells games for consoles other than Atari-owned ones.
@Sebidix is just wrong about those takes. The Activision ruling told Atari other people could make stuff for their console, and the Sega ruling showed that including copyrighted stuff in your lockout didn't count. In other words, anyone can make things for any system they can get them to run on.
Now I'm sure that's different with newer consoles and all the things you agree to just to turn it on the first time, and questions involving right-to-repair on newer stuff. But Gameboy stuff? That's one of the biggest communities of cart makers. Hell Nintendo isn't afraid to take down a Kickstarter, happens all the time, but not to people making their own gameboy games that don't copy nintendo characters, and you know they would if they could.
Not sure where that decades-old misinformation creeped in from haha.